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elkynben
Question:
Swimming freestyle's substyles
It was a surprise when I started reading about freestyle for triathlon. It seems there is a mystery in swimming learning, specially for non-skilled beginners. I am not a swimmer, but Sullivan is not a good example of freestyle technique (for longer swims than 100m). There are substyles as Total Immersion, Pose method (new), and other techniques (you see in ITU videos different personal styles). Which is the more efficient (time and economy) and why? Of course each one goes for personal adaptations.
Asked by elkynben - 9 answers - 12 weeks 3 days ago
scousemouse78
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Submitted 12 weeks 3 days ago by scousemouse78swimref
Total Immersion is not a substyle. It is a method for teaching nonswimmers how to be comfortable in the water. No idea about pose swimming, hopefully it is not related to pose running. In reality, all these competing methods have things going for them in teaching beginners, but they all also have failings. The problem is that they also all have fanatical followers.
I would say that none of the olympic swimmers are good examples for triathletes. First off you will have a wetsuit (It makes you faster so wear one). Second, you want to save your legs for the bike and run. So you will use the wetsuit to float your legs and do minimal kicking (opposite of what you want to do in a pool). You actually will go faster if you kick, but your overall time will be slower. The wetsuit will also help with your rotation as it will sort of bounce you back and forth between sides. Make sure you rotate a bit more that you normally would, but not flat side. Keep your pull wide and your elbows high. Also you don't want to start your pull too early. The glide you get from the wetsuit really lends itself to front quadrant swimming. This also gives you more time to get a breath in the waves.
Submitted 12 weeks 1 day ago by swimrefelkynben
Well, a wetsuit is not a solution all the time, most of races are in medium-hot T° (at least here in tropic).
As far as I know, kicking would add about 5% in propulsion (check Terry in TI - is more for positioning), we saw some swimmers at olympics with minimal kicking (middle or more distance). Front quadrant swimming and gliding let in dead spots that slow you down -"lose the momentum"-, of course this is important for beginners, but not for anyone looking for speed in middle-long swimming distances.
About Pose swimming (Dr. Romanov coachs some top triathletes), check by yourself:
http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000169.html
I read in a Forum that some swimmers do TI stroke with an arm, and a type of "kayaking" stroke with the other, is this true?.
Submitted 12 weeks 20 hours ago by elkynbenelkynben
Here some videos, there is not FQS:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=0D6CF653B9532A2C
Submitted 12 weeks 14 hours ago by elkynbenswimref
Well you asked about triathlons. None of those are in open water, and both Thorpe and Phelps are demonstrating front quadrant swimming. This is not the same a catchup or almost catchup as a lot of TIers will lead you to believe. In fact, if you read what Terry writes, he is not proposing a catchup type stroke in races, but in drills. Front quadrant means that both arms are in the front quarter at the same time for part of the stroke. Nothing in that implies gliding. In open water it will become more pronounced as you should rotate more on the longer non-sprint races. Remember that the 400 is a sprint for Thorpe.
If you are in water warm enough to not allow wetsuits, then go for a two beat kick. Any propulsion you might gain (and 5% assumes you have quite flexible ankles or you are sprinting and kicking hard enough to lift out of the water) is not worth it as it will kill the bike and run. There was a recent Aussie studiy showing that a slightly slower swim leads to a faster finish as the bike and run are much more important.
I read the pose swim stuff. It sounds like someone read TI and is attempting to impose what might work for running on top of it. That is generally a bad idea, as neither the movement nor propulsive forces are the same.
Submitted 11 weeks 6 days ago by swimrefelkynben
OK, tks for your reply.
I do TI swim (or try at least), but as other TI swimmers, need for speed. this is why I start reading on other approximations.
Pose swimming makes sense to me due to the idea of "change of support", which refers to the following I copy here from pose site:
"...The sculling drills are the best for feeling support. Scientifically speaking, there are 2 effects; drag and lift.
Submitted 11 weeks 5 days ago by elkynbenDrag is what happens if you push your hand straight down - it is the smaller of the effects.
Lift is what happens if you slice your angled hand around from side to side. It increases in proportion to the speed of your hand. Lift seems to be the most useful effect to focus on and is what most prople think of when they think of sculling.
This transfers into swimming via the drill where you scull with outstretched hands and kick gently along.
In full stroke I find that my hand now sculls a little at full extension to find support rather than just pulling down; the support from the scull comes first and then the pull down starts to apply body weight....it's simply the idea of support and getting that sense/feeling via sculling and the pressure created by that sculling actions...
...your hand is like the wing of a plane - as it flies through the water it generates lift. Your arm and body transfer the lift so it acts on your GCM."
swimref
Actually your hand is not really responsible for most of the power. Your power comes from your core rotating and your forearm is responsible for for most of the transfer to the water. That is why the TI folks push fist gloves, and everyone else does fist drills.
The real reason to scull out in freestyle is that you most likely enter too close or across the center of your body, and you need to get your arm wide and elbow bent and high to generate any power. Speedo once bought into your lift concept. They made some paddles designed to promote this. They were the worst paddles I have ever tried. They have since come out with ones designed to make you catch high and wide.
Both USA swimming and Australia Swimming have done a lot of actual research lately on what generates speed in the water. A lot of this has been published. I suggest reading some of it, then try things based on what they found. They had no agenda to push, so they went in looking to see what worked rather than to show they were right. Unfortunately this can not be said for the purveyors of any of these methods.
Submitted 11 weeks 3 days ago by swimrefelkynben
Then in conclusion, "good swimming is a personal mystery to search for", more art and feeling than sport.
Submitted 11 weeks 22 hours ago by elkynbenscousemouse78
yep
Submitted 11 weeks 5 min ago by scousemouse78